The Fuzzy Mic
After retiring from a 30-year, major market morning radio career, I'm often asked what I miss the most about the job. I miss 3 C's...camaraderie, creativity but most of all, conversation.
The Fuzzy Mic is built around creativity and conversation to develop camaraderie. The 4 focus areas are: Mental Health, True Crime, Music and Sports.
So, while The Fuzzy Mic allows me to fill some professional voids, it's my sincere hope that maybe you'll find something personally fulfilling in it too.
The Fuzzy Mic
Understanding Trauma and Finding Peace With Laurel Wiers
What if the key to your inner peace lies in understanding the latent pain you carry? Join us as we promise a transformative exploration into the depths of trauma with expert Laurel Wiers. Laurel redefines trauma, emphasizing its lasting impact on our psyche and emotions rather than the event itself. She shares invaluable insights from her work with first responders, highlighting why early intervention is crucial to prevent long-term effects. Through this episode, you'll gain a deeper understanding of how trauma can lie dormant for years, only to resurface at moments of vulnerability, and how our bodies manage this latent pain.
Discover the complexities of trauma triggers and the therapeutic techniques designed to neutralize them. Laurel introduces groundbreaking methods such as EMDR, ART, and critical memory integration, offering a roadmap to emotional release and healing. By connecting negative memories to more positive associations, these therapies help alleviate the pain of triggers that can arise from simple interactions. With compelling personal stories, including the emotional aftermath of a loved one's suicide, this episode provides listeners with powerful tools and hope for navigating their own healing journeys.
Experience the revolutionary approach of Rapid Trauma Resolution Therapy, which offers substantial relief without the need to recount traumatic experiences in detail. Laurel's discussion about the benefits of this method, particularly for first responders and survivors of sexual abuse, underscores the importance of properly integrating traumatic memories. In our final conversation, we uncover the profound ways self-love and trauma integration can lead to a sense of inner peace and stability. Reconnect with your past self and learn to embrace your traumas as we guide you through this path to healing and emotional well-being.
Hello and thank you for joining me on this episode of the Fuzzy Mike. You know the feedback of the past two episodes. It's been overwhelming and so positive. So thank you for those kind comments and for the several congratulatory messages on our 100th episode last week. This week we start our trek to 200.
Speaker 1:And, having the benefit of recording these in advance, I can tell you that the conversation you're about to hear well, it was life-changing for me and I fully believe that if you are dealing with a past trauma, it could be just as life-altering for you. My guest this week is Laurel Weers. Laurel is somebody I found on a podcast that I listen to regularly and it's hosted by a future Fuzzy Mike guest. Her name is Jen Drummond. While I was listening to Laurel on Jen's podcast, I appreciated her ability to articulate the dynamics of trauma in a way that wasn't clinical. I appreciated her empathy and her passion for healing those who hurt.
Speaker 1:I wanted to have her on the Fuzzy Mike because I know some of you who listen and openly talk with me about your post-traumatic events. I know you can greatly benefit from Laurel and her methods, and my goal with the fuzzy mic it's always been to provide you information, instruction and inspiration to help you navigate through your own mental struggles struggles Whether you know me personally or just through this podcast or my days when I was on the radio. You know that I am open about my own mental health diagnoses, but I try very hard not to make my own mental dilemmas a focus of this podcast. The question I always ask myself is how will this impact a listener? Never. How will this impact me? So I do feel quite sheepish that this conversation did take a bit of a personal tone, but I rationalize that by telling myself that I'm just an example of how Laurel and her methods can benefit you. I'm excited to bring you this amazing episode.
Speaker 2:Hello Laurel Weers. Good morning, how are you?
Speaker 1:I'm fantastic, so excited to be speaking with you.
Speaker 2:Oh well, thank you, Same here. Thanks for asking me to be on.
Speaker 1:Your voice and the way that you talk, just it seems empowering.
Speaker 2:Oh well, that's my hope. Right's what I hope with everyone I sit with yeah.
Speaker 1:And so let's just jump in and say, ask the question what is trauma?
Speaker 2:oh, you know, it's actually a word that, as you've heard me say, I kind of shy away from. Um, trauma is really any event. That's really big. And the way I look at it personally is it changes your whole trajectory. There's a pre-trauma version of you and then there's a post-trauma version of you and I think what we call trauma in between that varies anywhere from a car accident to being bullied when we were little. I don't think that we have to make it a certain thing right, the DSM. Everyone has certain definitions of what trauma is, but there's so many people that talk about it, like Gabor Mate. He's very big in the trauma field and he says trauma isn't the event that happened, but it's basically the mark that it leaves upon you, the imprint upon your psyche, who you are, your emotions. So to me that's trauma, it's what's left over. It's really not the event, so much.
Speaker 1:So how does or why does trauma lay dormant in our minds for so long and then all of a sudden, for no apparent reason, it just shows up?
Speaker 2:This is such a good question, truly, because my clients will come to me and say this and in a sense it fools people because they think it's not trauma or they think the event has been taken care of or they've processed it or that they're just fine. And then they come into my office and they say I don't know why, suddenly right, and it's not. Suddenly I'm being triggered by something, and really it's just that they've done a really good job or their body sometimes not even intentionally has done a great job at managing. And I feel like what happens in life and I see this all the time is that we all have this capacity to be resilient and we all have this ability to overcome and to function. We are made to function in the face of horrible things. But over time I feel like there's a chipping away that starts to happen and then we never know for everybody it's different when we're going to hit that point that we become almost fragile in a sense. So a great example of this is my first responders.
Speaker 2:Typically, I have two ends of the spectrum with them. I either have the first group, which are the brand new first responders. They've gone to their, you know, they're in their first six months they've gone to these horrible calls and they're having nightmares or they can't drive down the street where they went to the call and somebody didn't make it. And so they're very aware that this is consuming them in their mind because they haven't quite, maybe, mastered the ability yet to function through that. So I love it. I love it when they come to me because I feel like it's a gift I can give them to say let me clean that up for you, so your brain doesn't have to show it to you anymore, so you can drive down that street and not be triggered anymore. And I feel like when they can go out at the beginning of their career and know that they have a Laurel to call or anybody to call, to say I keep seeing this and it's long past the event, that's a win for me. So I either get them in the beginning or I get the end, which this is where it ties back to kind of this chipping away. So I'll get my guys that they've been in the field for 25, 30 years and they have seen so much stuff and they have functioned perfectly fine.
Speaker 2:Now they'll come and tell me oh yes, I've been triggered for years. Or oh yes, I've had nightmares, that type of a thing, but it hasn't impeded their ability to get the job done. But then all of a sudden they hit this one accident and they're like Laurel ever since that accident. I cannot hear the own sirens from my truck, the police sirens. I can't go out there without getting into fight or flight. So what they are actually recognizing is that their nervous system has kind of hit its max on what it can manage. And now, all of a sudden, this thing. They think it's this case, but it's not this case, it's just that their system can't manage it anymore. So then they come into me and what I say is it wasn't really this case, this was just a re-traumatization of probably a couple other calls that you went to, and then we will, you know, clean that out and then they're good to go again. So yeah, I think that our bodies can hold so much, and for everyone it's different when suddenly we can't hold it anymore.
Speaker 1:So a lot to dissect in that answer right there and I love it. It's so beautiful dissecting that answer right there and I love it. It's so beautiful. So it can. I know we don't like to use the word trauma, but is it just one event that can cause the damage or is it multiple events?
Speaker 2:that have to accumulate. One event can do it Really. Or it can be multiple. Oh, totally Like well, think, for example, I can have somebody who's fine their whole life. They get in one car accident and they suddenly can knock it in their car without a panic attack. One event. Or they have some one event happen with a dog. Right, it doesn't take a whole lot. The thing is we never know. Now there's been research that shows you know the ACEs study that if we've had past negative life events you know abuse, domestic violence, parents with mental health yes, there is a propensity for us to be more likely to experience trauma or have PTSD because of our background. But you can have plenty of people who don't have any of that and they just have one event and that's all that it takes, and then they have trauma from it.
Speaker 1:So I'm 13 years old. My dad tells me I'll never amount to anything. I brush it off at the time, but I used it as motivation to become as successful as I wanted to become or could become. To spite him. It didn't feel bad at the time, but then, as I got older, it felt horrible. Yes, how does that happen? Why do we seemingly not internalize that? And then, bam, it just shows up.
Speaker 2:Exactly Kind of that same thing, right, we don't know when it suddenly becomes a problem and typically what happens is you're right, and I think this is what's so good is there's strength that can be found in some of these negative things, and I love that people can look back and say I had the capacity to take something really negative right and turn it into a positive.
Speaker 2:But then something will happen that triggers that same sense of someone doesn't believe in me, someone doubts me, someone's judging me, someone thinks I'm incompetent, right In their normal daily life, 20 years later or whatnot, and all of a sudden they don't actually most of the time tie it back to that 13 year old event.
Speaker 2:So when you talk about that, that's a great insight and self-awareness, because many of my people that is not the stage that they're coming into me at. They're coming into me and they're saying Laurel, I'm going into these meetings or I'm going into this new job and I don't know what is coming over me, but I suddenly am at a loss for words or I suddenly don't feel like I can do it, and what I will say to them is just notice what you're feeling in that moment, notice how that feels in your body and our bodies are so good at telling us the true story. And when I will do that, they will say, oh, that feels familiar. And then I'll say, okay, let's follow this, let's pull this thread, let's go back in time and find out, when else did you feel that? And usually they will have the response oh, I just saw this moment, but it was so long ago. That can't be it.
Speaker 2:And I'm like, no, no, no, no, yes, that actually is it. Whenever you tell me, no, that can't be it, I'm like, oh, we're into something good because that is definitely going to be it. And so, yeah, we'll go back and they'll say I was 13 years old, this is what my dad told me, and that, right is a trauma response. It's your body always having that in the front of your brain and it's the filter through which every other life event comes through and it taints it. So if we can go back and neutralize that, and then your body no longer is thinking about it and holding it, you're still your resilient self that you learned to be, but without the baggage of that statement, you won't amount to anything.
Speaker 1:You just clarified something for me that years of therapy has been unable to do, and I've done EMDR before. I mean that was a long process and it's not as good, it's not as rapid as ART, which we're going to talk about. That's your specialty, but yeah, it was like two and a half months at $160 a pop every week. It's just crazy.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1:No, but that's where I learned that the 13 year old trauma happened. Okay, but what you just said to me explains everything about why a boss will come to me and say hey, and that's all it does. That's all they have to say. They might say something good after that, but I hear hey, and all of a sudden I go into defensive mode.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, and so the EMDR didn't fix that.
Speaker 1:It didn't fix it. It just identified where the problem came from.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay. So guess what? There's hope you can actually neutralize that.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, you say there's hope, and that's one of the things that I take away from researching. You know, when you hear trauma, we automatically at least I do think blunt force trauma. You know, boom, somebody's, somebody's been hit, A bruise shows up. Well, guess what? The bruise goes away eventually. So maybe the hope is that these holding back thoughts can go away too.
Speaker 2:Right, and that's how a lot of people operate and for the most part, that actually do. They go away, no, but continue to be a problem. No, most people can move along quite fine, but usually it's right. In that moment when it becomes a problem, oh, it's all you can see once it's revealed to you, and that's where people are stuck because they're like well, I did two years of therapy, laurel, I've talked about this, they'll come to me. Oh, I process this and I'm like okay, then how come you're tearful right now? Because if you really process this, like you would probably not be emoting on a certain level with it, when something has been integrated into your memory the way that it needs to be, to no longer be triggering, and yeah, how do we move that thought from the front of our mind into the back of our mind, where it lays dormant and doesn't ever appear?
Speaker 2:it lays dormant and doesn't ever appear. So that would be through any of the methods. So EMDR sometimes can do that, art sometimes can do that, and also critical memory integration can do that, and that's a new emerging therapeutic model that came out this last year that I had the pleasure of being a collaborator on. So basically, what you have to do is you have to calm your body as it's reacting to those images, to those moments, to those things that were spoken over you. But the beauty is it's not just desensitizing yourself to it, but you actually have to process it and almost in a sense connect it to something more positive. So in accelerated resolution therapy, what you do, one of our processes, is we actually create positization is what the developer calls it to a memory.
Speaker 2:So once we process the negative, you can ask questions like well, how do you wish it had been? And in that moment, when you can take a memory that was really traumatic and you can make it unstable, your brain has the ability to actually change it. You're not changing the memory the people always remember the facts but you can change the images and the sensations, which are really the troubling part. Anyways, nobody gets upset when you say, oh, my father was negative towards me. But when you sit in that moment and you see your father and you hear those words and your body calls it up, that's what becomes the problem. So if we can take that and we can process out again, the body holds it and there's ways that I can calm people's body as they're remembering the memory.
Speaker 2:But once you process it out, it's almost like this drain where your body's like okay, thank you. Like I always say to my clients, sit in that moment and feel that and acknowledge that feeling. Do not gloss over it, because when you say hi, thank you, thank you for being there, I see what's happening, I honor what I went through in those earlier years. It's like your body goes ah, now that you heard us, we can leave you, and it will. It will process out the emotional piece of it and then we can make sense of okay, what would have been a better way to have resolved this situation.
Speaker 2:And it's crazy when the memory is unstable, it will latch onto that new image and that new sensation. And by the end of a session, when I say to a client, like if it were you, I would say father at 13, what do you see right now they will see the new memory or the new image sorry, not the new memory the new image that we associated with it, which is so cool because that's positive. And then they leave with that feeling. They can recite to me what happened at 13, but they no longer see the bad. And then they're no longer triggered because their nervous system has been calmed down.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so interesting because for 30 years actually it was 27 years I was. There was never any negative years I was. There was never any negative failure or anything on my part and I felt like I was winning, okay. And then, but my dad, he's. He's long gone, 18, 19 years ago. He killed himself.
Speaker 2:But uh, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1:Oh, no, don't be, don't be, no, not at all. Uh, I, I people say that all the time, oh, I'm so sorry, and I look at it like you know. Yeah, he committed suicide and it sucks for the family, but the thing that the the act itself doesn't bother me. What bothers me is, I don't know, his demeanor going down those stairs to hang himself. Was he mad? Was he sad? Was he just fed up? You know that that's what bothers me, Cause you never left a note. It does. The act itself doesn't bother me at all.
Speaker 2:You know, it really doesn't.
Speaker 1:So, but my point was that for 27 years I was, oh God, I was winning, I was winning. The spite was, it was real and man, I took it. I took that power away from him and then the biggest failure of my life happened and I'm still dealing with it because I can't change it. You know, that's where the 13 year old thing came up and it's like, man, he was right.
Speaker 2:Oh damn, oh, we have to fix that for you, kevin, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Because think what would it be like if you didn't have that. Continue to creep back in and continue to like poke at that self-doubt.
Speaker 1:Well, I'd probably still have a job. I would probably be, you know, like I was before this event happened, and I mean world by the tail. But now I self-doubt. Now I'm. I seriously. I retired shortly after this event. In the event was, I was trying to do something that had never been done before and I failed. I didn't do it and so yeah, but so I quit my job, I retired quote, retired. I was on the radio for 30 years and I felt after this failure, I felt, well, you're like a fraud, you can't be in the public eye if you can't succeed.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I know Right, and it's. It's crazy though, isn't it that?
Speaker 1:that one memory from uh. You know what? I was 13 years old at uh, early eighties. Yeah, right, and it is. And people will say it's one memory, but but it really is 13 years old, early 80s.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, right, and it is, and people will say it's one memory, but it really is, because in a sense, like we talked about how we started this, it altered who you were Before your father spoke those words over you. You could take on the world Right After he spoke those words over you. Even though you pushed against it, it was planted and then there was always this reactivity to it. And then, when you talk about the event that happened that you know led to this shift in you, that, in a sense, is a re-traumatization of 13-year-old you right, it feels the same in your body, I would dare to say, and they connect on the same feelings because really, that was the original, but this was like oh, here we are again. So, yeah, you need to clear those.
Speaker 1:Oh, he doubled down when I was 22,. Because then I told him, hey, I just took a job in radio and I'm making $13,100 a year and he goes. He told you no life, no future. And I just, yeah, he doubled down. Man, he you know.
Speaker 2:Seriously, yeah, those are what we call critical memories. Right, these memories that again they screw with us. So if you were my client, we would pull both of those, we would pull 13 and we would pull 22 and we would neutralize them, so they were no longer part of the way that you react to things.
Speaker 1:But it was such a motivating factor for me though you know, and had I not. So what I was trying to do was I was trying to be the first person in recorded history to run from the Arctic Circle sign to the Arctic Ocean in winter.
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 1:Minus 40 degrees and it's 304 miles and I only ran 264 before my body gave out, you know.
Speaker 2:That is quite an accomplishment. 264, Kevin. Oh, my word.
Speaker 1:It was yeah, it was a marathon a day for nine straight days Super impressive, but it's super impressive. But here's the thing, though I was doing it for childhood cancer awareness, and so you, the world's watching you, and, yes, you blow up, and so my first thought was he was right. Damn it and I know it's irrational, and I know it's subconscious, and but you know it's there. You know it's irrational and I know it's subconscious, and but you know it's there, you know it's there.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely. And you know you made a very interesting comment a moment ago that I want to highlight because it's a comment I hear often. So when people have these negative events, sometimes they will come to me and they'll say, laurel, I know this is a problem, but I don't want to get rid of it, because it is the reason I am a success, it's the reason that I've been able to do what I do, and so if you do something with this, I won't be that person anymore. Very, very common misconception, to which I say it is like when it's alarm bells, but they're going off all the time, right? So you want a fire alarm that works when there is a fire. You don't want a fire alarm that goes off all the time over the slightest thing, because that's annoying and then we don't function well, right, it creates a sense.
Speaker 2:We want to be in a vigilant state, not in a hypervigilant state. And so when people come to me and they say that, I say you're not going to lose who you are, your tenacity, your drive, your ability, but what we're going to do is take away those parts of you that do too much of that, in a sense, because you're trying to cover up your insecurities. That's the exhausting, tiring piece of you that you just don't need. It's costing you something in a negative fashion. So if we can clear that up, you can still have all that other stuff, but it's not going to take away who you have developed yourself to be through all these other things. It just takes away the super hypervigilant alarm bells, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, Because one of the things I read is and this is from, I believe, your website trauma saps your energy.
Speaker 2:It does. Concentration, creativity, focus, you know, just makes you just tired, it makes you anxious, as your nervous system is jacked up all the time and again. We can do that for a season, but we can't do it forever. It shouldn't be a lifestyle.
Speaker 1:So I mentioned that I was EMDR. I said it took me two months, two and a half months EMDR. I said it took me two months, two and a half months ART would shorten that by at least half.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, Like well, like, everything you just talked about would literally be one session. Seriously Seriously seriously one session.
Speaker 1:How do you make money?
Speaker 2:Someone said that to me the other day. They were like you are so different because I hear you saying that you want people to get well and to be done with you, and they said the same thing, like that's not a really good model, and I'm like, well, I really just believe there's enough pain in the world that I probably am okay.
Speaker 1:Well, there is actually. Yeah, you're right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally. And obviously I don't take insurance, so people pay well to have this done. But I mean, who doesn't want to be done? I think that's a great deal to be done in one session. To three sessions when you have these things. I mean typically when it's something like you just said. That to me is one session top two, but I can hear what you're saying right now. I can look at the memory sets. That's one.
Speaker 2:But when I have people that have a couple of things, well, they'll come in and hang out with me for a half day or a full day and we just go through all their stuff and just pick off their critical memories one by one and then they leave and they are tired as all get get out. Don't get me wrong, it is emotionally exhausting. We've taken years of therapy and put it into a day, but it just clears them right out and they leave and after three days later, when they're like whew, they come to life again. They're like, oh my gosh, the clarity is unbelievable because you don't have that baggage weighing on you anymore. But yeah, art was an outgrowth of EMDR. So they work on the same thing, which is memory reconsolidation and adaptive information processing, which is taking your memory networks and really integrating them properly.
Speaker 2:When we have big life events happen, we're not integrating right. It's almost like your brain's like this is too big, we're just going to leave it hanging out here for a little while, and that's what screws things up. So both of those modalities come in and they say let's finish that memory network, let's integrate it and let's calm the nervous system and get you to move on and make sense of it, because it's a natural thing your brain does it anyways. It's just that we need to manually do it when there's big traumas. But the difference is EMDR and I'm trained in EMDR also it is free, associative and ART is much more formulaic and it's a protocol and it's quicker and it kind of dives in, gets to it, pulls it out, neutralizes it. I can do it anywhere from 45 minutes to an hour and a half max two hour session to do certain memory sets. Whereas EMDR, because it's more free, associative, it takes a little bit longer.
Speaker 1:Okay, so for somebody who needs this and I'm thinking of somebody in particular, and it's not me, it's one of my regular listeners and she listens religiously and she's had some serious trauma in her life Okay, so for somebody who needs this, doesn't know about it, explain what EMDR means.
Speaker 2:Okay, it's eye movement, desensitization and reprocessing. Okay, so that's the EMDR and with that, basically, what you're doing is you're looking at the memories, you're looking at how they changed your life and you're processing it, meaning that you're finally making sense of it and you're integrating it. So when we have memories that are not processed, they're called ready state memories. These are memories that, in a sense, they're the ones that come up when you're triggered. So your brain, they're out here and your brain is always going hello, hello, hello. We have this memory here and it's not integrated and therefore it's screwing things up. It's reminding us and it's doing a service, though it's protecting us. What it's saying is we never, ever want to experience that again or feel that way again. So it's out there. It thinks, making you a better person and making your life better by reminding you of don't let this happen again. That's a problem. So when you go in and you process these memories, you put it back and say thank you again. Yes, but this is old.
Speaker 2:See, triggers are often when your past is creeping into your present. It's making you think that this is a current threat, when really it was a past threat. So both EMDR and ART tell your brain. Oh, it's over. And now that it's over, we can go forward with what we learned, like I talked about with you before these people that are hypervigilant let's just go back to vigilance. Let's go back to learning and being rational and being more calculated and conscious and aware and present, whereas when we're hypervigilance, let's go back to learning and being rational and being more calculated and conscious and aware and present, whereas when we're hypervigilant, we're in the past and we're not seeing that this is over.
Speaker 1:So one of the ways that we did this in EMDR and I think you do it also on ART is the eye movement thing, where my therapist had something on a little multicolored ball on the end of a stick and I had to follow it with my eyes. What does that do?
Speaker 2:So that is bilateral stimulation. So you can do it either with your eyes, you can do it with sound, you can do it with tapping. So I used to do eye movements forever. That's all I did. But then I started to use tappers, because I would have people that couldn't do the eye movements for whatever reason, whether they just had difficulty moving their eyes, or people with ADHD often have difficulty holding onto the thought and moving their eyes sometimes. So then I would go to I use these buzzers that people put in their hand. But it's any way that you create bilateral stimulation and what it does is two things. One is it's a very calming response. So when people get upset it does calm, but also it distracts the brain. And as you're distracting the brain with bilateral stimulation, it just allows you to more easily access what's going on and to make sense of the memories that are coming forward. So that's really it's kind of got a twofold process in it.
Speaker 1:So you said free association with EMDR. Yeah, it seemed like there was nothing congruent about it. It's like how do you feel now? How do you feel now? And I'm just you know? So how does ART differ? Because we're getting faster results.
Speaker 2:Well, because we're not doing. How do you feel now? How do you feel now, go with it, go with it, go with it. That's exactly what we were doing. Yeah, and again, I use EMDR parts of it in the work that I do, but I don't do it the way that a session is typically done with that, because I know I can get results quicker with ART, so that being, the difference is that when somebody's doing EMDR, yes, they're having a thought and as a therapist, you're saying, okay, what do you feel now? What do you see now? What are you noticing now? Let's go with it.
Speaker 2:The person you know does the eye movements again and then the brain is processing, it absolutely is doing something, and then you're like, okay, what are you noticing now? Right, you can see that this could go on for session after session, after session after session, and it does for a lot of people. And, yes, they are integrating and they are making sense of it. But it's taking a lot longer to do that process because you're just allowing the person to go wherever and sometimes they can get a little bit off, right, sometimes they were supposed to be going this way, but then this other memory set comes up and that's important information, but then they're going over here with it. So you're processing that With ART.
Speaker 2:What's happening is I know the memory set we're working on and we don't do go with it, go with it, go with it. That is, we are literally just processing that memory set and then we are adding positive association with it. Obviously there's other steps that happen in between, but because of that I know every step of the way what I'm looking for. I know if it's working. If it's not working, I know if we've hit the right memory based on what's happening in the person's body, or if actually that memory was a representation of an earlier memory and that's the one that we need to process. And if I see that, then I say, oh, this isn't it, there's something else. And then in that session we will hit that. And then in that session we will hit that, and then we start over with that memory set and go through it, and so, anyways, it's just a very more directive process that doesn't allow for the weaving and diving and bobbing and moving that EMDR does with the same results.
Speaker 1:Talking to Laura Wears you can see Laura Wears on laurawhearscom or you can go. You started Lighthouse Counseling.
Speaker 2:Yes, yep, so I have Lighthouse Counseling, that's my counseling business, and then Optimal Outcome is my coaching and consulting business.
Speaker 1:And here's something interesting that I heard you say Trauma was not your first Love. It was not where you found, it was not where you thought you would be.
Speaker 2:Oh no, it was not my jam at all. Like I did not like it. It scared me, truth be told, because I knew I couldn't help you for the first 17 years. I knew that I could be comforting and I could journey alongside of you and I could be a support, but I knew that there wasn't transformation and just the nature of who I've always been as a person which obviously gets translated into my therapy is I'm very solution focused, I'm very action oriented and I want you to be better as soon as possible. I want you to live your life.
Speaker 2:So what happened is my trauma. People would come in and we would talk, but they weren't getting better. We were just talking about the same thing over and over again. And even that sometimes is worse, because if you're not processing and integrating a trauma, you are literally just being re-traumatized by the retelling of that traumatic event. So, if anything, you may feel worse, or I'm opening things up for you and you're going home and you're dreaming about them. Now you're having nightmares again. Well, of course you're going to need me next week because you've been feeling like garbage ever since our session last week, because I opened you up and I didn't actually do anything for your trauma.
Speaker 2:So I realized very early on, if I even smelled PTSD I'd be like, oh no, no, no, no, no. I got to go send them to one of those EMDR people. I don't know what they do, but they say they can do PTSD, so you'll go over there. So that's what I did for 17 years. And then I had a couple clients that my heart really went out for and I did take them on and they didn't want to go anywhere else or they were waiting to get EMDR, so I would let them stay with me. And then that's when I happened upon hearing about this new form of therapy and got trained in it and they were still like within the holds of my practice. So I was like, well, let's just try this and see if it works. And I did it. And it blew my mind, it blew their mind, it surpassed anything I'd ever been taught about therapy. Right, when you get trained as a talk therapist which I'm a proponent of, like, I do it, but I know when it works and when it doesn't. And so to have this therapy where we're not talking and that is the beautiful piece of it is that you just have to be able to see in your mind's eye these moments, which is so safe for my first responders for sexual abuse people, anything like that, because they don't have to recount the details of that mess all over to me again, which a lot of people love.
Speaker 2:So, anyways, I saw this happening and I saw that we could do something by moving someone's eyes and just changing the way that their brain looked at these images and sensations and the way that it stored it, and it brought this immense relief. And then they didn't even need to come back to me sometimes because we had solved their problem and they'll come back the next week. You're like so what's going on? They're like I'm good, and then they'll come back a month later, I'm good. So, yeah, once I realized that, I was like, oh, bring it on, Anybody that I heard that had stuck points in their life or had traumas.
Speaker 2:I wanted to help them because I knew the other misconception was that I could do it quickly, because everyone thinks, right, it's going to take months or years, like you said, two and a half months, and all this like grueling therapy, and I was like, no, like we can do this, and in an hour and a half you are going to feel such a lift and such relief from that memory set and, yeah, so that just changed everything for me To the point that now that's really all that I do besides my coaching changed everything for me and to the point that now that's really all that I do besides my coaching. After I do this work with people. I just love to do intensives and I love to do our work online with a lot of people just one-offs, you know, for certain memory sets and things that happen.
Speaker 1:So you can do it online.
Speaker 2:Yes, I can do it online. I do so. It's so cool. There's all these ways that you can get a ball that moves online and people can watch it. Or I had these tappers that I have people buy and I can remotely manage your buzzers so I can get the bilateral stimulation.
Speaker 2:The only time that I get a little more nervous online is when people come to me is if they have more than two to three memory sets that I know need to be processed, because that can become laborious doing a session a week for like three, four, five weeks and you don't feel the lift quite as much sometimes when you have to process through like three to five memory sets. So I'll say you know what? Just come in, spend a half day with me, spend a day with me and we'll get through it that way. And if I think that they might have some dissociative tendencies, then I just feel a lot more comfortable having people be there with me in the present. If I know that that's a possibility, I will work with people online that have that. But I feel a lot better if it's complex, trauma and there's a lot going on. I just think being together in person is just such a better deal for that.
Speaker 1:You said something earlier about your clients. Will see you once, maybe twice. They come back. Problem solved Is there a problem that can't be solved?
Speaker 2:I'm sure there are right, because there's no one therapy that is perfect for everything in this world and I am always learning, always learning things that I said, like seven years ago, oh I can knock that out. Now I'm learning. 80% of the time I can knock a phobia out, but 20% of the time, if you have generalized anxiety disorder and your phobia is a presentation of your anxiety, oh, I can't knock that out in one session. So I would be so careful to ever say is there anything that it can't address? Just because I think that we always need to learn and be open.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I don't know what the statistics are, but I know that it's a very, very minuscule part of our brain that we actually know and understand. You know, the brain is so fascinating, I mean, it's like the ocean, it's so untapped, you know.
Speaker 2:Yes, totally, and just all the connections that our brain has and where it goes to and all the things that it wants to show us and teach us and resolve.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, here's an interesting thing, because you and I have had this scheduled for a week and yesterday, when I started doing my intense prep for this conversation, I woke up and I don't know where it came from, but I started singing and I don't know if you know the song or not. It's called Lucky man by the Verve. It's from the 90s Okay, they're a British band. Anyway, I started singing this song in my head. I haven't sang it in years, but there's a line in the song and it hit me this morning. There's a line in the song that says all the love I have is in my mind. So talking about, you know, self-love, you know it's talking about acceptance of who we are and that's all we need. And when I was listening to it again this morning, prepping, doing my last minute prep, I'm like holy shit. That's why I'm singing this song, because Laurel's going to help me find the inner peace, going to help me find the love for myself that has been missing. So isn't that weird, isn't that crazy?
Speaker 2:I love that you said that, because that taps into one of the big things that I do with people, which is the critical memory integration and so much of that work. Honestly, before I even start jumping into the memory sets with people, I go into the space of seeing that version of you that was harmed and really trying to get in touch with that compassion and that empathy and what that person did not have, that they needed, and then offering that to them. And when you do that and you're able to get in touch with that and bring that person in and in a sense, like integrate them with who you are now, you're right, that self-love, it is so powerful and it just grows and it brings just a stability and a clarity and a sense of oh, this is who I am, that's not me, this is who I am. That people are. Just they're limitless when they can get in touch with that.
Speaker 1:Can we heal ourselves?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Really.
Speaker 2:Can we heal ourselves, meaning that? Can we go back and grab like those versions of ourselves and offer that love and give what that little person didn't have? Yes, I see it all the time in my sessions, that just that acknowledgement of the pain that the earlier version of us went through. And sometimes, kevin, it is as simple as that. It is as simple as a person saying I see that six-year-old me, I see how scared they were in that moment. I'm going to just hug them right now because that's what they need and in your mind you can do that. And you wouldn't believe what I see in my sessions Something that takes literally three minutes. You will see this lift on their face and they're like they're safe now.
Speaker 1:You literally see the weight off of their shoulders.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes. So when we say can we heal ourselves, To me that's a beautiful example of how we do that whole process. I believe there's a lot that comes from above. I believe there's a lot of guidance and healing as well, you know, from places that are outside of us.
Speaker 1:But as far as being a conduit to let that be expressed, yes, yeah, that's kind of what I thought when I woke up this morning and I finally figured out what the song was meaning and why it was. You know. Now I thought, wow, the universe is telling me something really really strange, you know, because I too believe in a higher power, you know that guides us. So I thought I thought that too immediately. The brain is a muscle. By working out your muscles, you condition them and get them stronger. The way that we train our brain, is it just using mantras?
Speaker 2:Just using mantras. No, I think there's so much more than using a mantra to strengthen our brain. No, I think that so. To me, that reminds me of when I talked to a lot of people about cognitive behavioral therapy, which is very helpful, but where it meets its end is there's so much that we can do just by saying think differently, behave differently, respond differently, look at things differently, like tell yourself, like I have this saying do you have power over something? If it's a no, let it go right, like that's a mantra. I will do that in therapy with people Check and ask yourself when you're feeling anxious is, if it's a no, let it go.
Speaker 2:But that has limits, because there are certain situations when your nervous system is so involved in something that no amount of recitation of any mantra is really going to get you to behave yourself or to do something that you need to do if you have a block, because it's the way that some memory or some event in your life has been wired into you. So I think that really it's twofold. We have to also train our brains to learn new things. There are muscles that we have to grow and new skills we have to adapt. But we also have to be aware when there's been hindrances, bruises, scars that need to be healed, so therefore we can grow even more.
Speaker 1:You're fascinating. You really are, and you know, the first responders that you work with are definitely heroes, but I think you are too, because you're helping people overcome debilitating situations. You know, and thank you for doing that. Thank you for taking on this work and thank you for being open to working with trauma.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you. I don't think I could do anything but this to me. I feel like God has given me a gift and he has given me an ability that it is our duty to just release that into the world.
Speaker 1:Isn't it rewarding when somebody makes that breakthrough right in front of you.
Speaker 2:Oh, oh, my gosh, that's what keeps me going. If you were to meet my husband and ask him and say what is the thing that Laurel's the most passionate about, he will tell you. Oh, you get her talking about her trauma. People, I light up. There's nothing better than just being like. I just helped that person find a way to live life differently and they're so fulfilled and they're so free and they can now be who God designed them to be. That's what matters to me. Don't be anything less than who you were called to be on this earth, and if I can help you clear that so you can go into your destiny, then like that's such a win.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a win for you, it's a win for them, it's a win for humanity, you know we all win because of you. How do people get in touch with you, Laurel?
Speaker 2:So one of the easiest ways is to go to my website, laurelwearscom, and then it has a contact me button and then I can get in touch with them and we can talk about. I do free 20 minute consultations for people can explore if we're a good fit and if this is something I can help them with. Or I'm hanging out on LinkedIn. That's kind of my social media outlet of choice because it's you know, it's just nice and clean and it's businesslike. So that's where I am most of the times. They can find me on LinkedIn as well.
Speaker 1:Awesome, and you have a book that deals with marriage, right.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's called Betrayed, Not Broken, and I wrote that about 10, 11 years ago and it has to deal with the trauma of infidelity. So it's a guide for men and women. It's written more towards the female languaging, but it's useful for partners and it's to decide do you want to stay, Do you want to go? Is this relationship salvageable? And how did we end up here and just to cleanly be able to walk away knowing like, okay, I looked at that, I thought everything through and if I choose to go, I'm at peace. But also that 70% of marriages can survive it. So let's figure this out so we can make our marriage better. So it's really just a guide to get people to where they need to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you put yourself in some situations that I would run from at the first sign of conflict. I'm gone. I am gone, whether it's my own or whether it's somebody else's, and you sit there and you listen to couples. Oh my God, how do you do that?
Speaker 2:Oh that I can tell you I was pretty intense with that for probably five years after my book and I'm not going to lie, it was tiring because you know, inherently in infidelity is lying Right. So just because you're in my office doesn't Because you know, inherently in infidelity is lying right. So just because you're in my office doesn't mean you're going to stop lying. And so it is very difficult I mean I'm human too to sit there and be like this woman or this dude is totally lying here, like none of this is stringing together. It's hard, but that's where you just have to kind of be like okay, back to the basics, and you just dive in, and really a good therapist is not going to, personally, I believe let you sit in there and scream and yell at each other, because you can do that for free at home. So we don't need to be doing that in my office and that's what I tell people. I'm like just go home, don't pay me if that's what you want to do. But we're going to do it really differently in here and to really just calm people and be like we're going towards the same place here. But let's just calm down and go forward. But no, you feel like a referee sometimes and there's plenty of that that goes on when you're doing infidelity work.
Speaker 2:It is grueling, there is a lot to it, but it is beautiful to see people get out on the other side and have actually a better marriage, and those are the ones that I love the most. And not everyone gets there. Some people infidelity is just too much for someone and everyone's different, and this is what I tell everybody. You have to decide where you fit in with this. Some people can forgive and move on, and that's great.
Speaker 2:But you're no less of a human if you're like you know what that mark was. Just too much, and I can't look at you without seeing that every day of my life. And I can't look at you without seeing that every day of my life and you have to move on. But when I have the two people that can sit there and say let's both own our pieces as to why needs went unmet and you see them two years later posting all over Facebook on these dates and how much in love they are, I'm like man think where that could have gone had they not put the time in. So those are the ones that I just celebrate because their marriage is always better when you make it through something like that, because everything is out and you have nothing to lose, so you can really work through some gunk.
Speaker 1:Saving lives, saving marriages. You're like the coming of Christ. You're super special. Thank you so much for joining me and continued success to you. You're real cool. Thank you so much for joining me and, uh, continued success to you. You're, you're, you're real cool.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much. I so appreciate you giving me this time. Honestly, this is beautiful.
Speaker 1:You know I I don't know if you're watching the U S open on, uh, saturday. Uh, coco golf, are you familiar with tennis? Okay, top five players in the world. She's the best American player that we have and she committed 19 double faults in one set. One, one one. You know one, one set, and it reminded me of what you do. It just it kept compounding itself. She had that first one, then she has a second one, and it just kept compounding and she couldn't get out of her own head Then she has a second one and it just kept compounding and she couldn't get out of her own head and I was like Laurel needs to reach out to her.
Speaker 2:I can fix you. I love that. You can see all the people you can connect me with. That would be just lovely, but you're not wrong about that. I work with athletes on that exact type of thing. I worked with plenty of athletes who have gotten injured or have made a mistake and they cannot go back without being haunted like that. You work with people like that. Yes, yeah, it's so fun to do. I love that work because it's one session, you know, and they're done.
Speaker 2:It's literally being yelled at falling off, getting injured. Injuries are a big thing because rightfully so our body is like no, no, no, no, no. So basketball players, when you twist an ankle, when you're stuck in traffic underneath that net, your tenacity is challenged. When you have to go back there, or when you've headed the ball and something's gone wrong right and you've gotten injured. In soccer, it is so amazing the way that you just can you have that slightest bit of hesitancy right when you go back in, and how it does impact your ability to perform the way that you did beforehand. So those are some of my easiest cases. It's like 45 minutes and you're done and they process that and they go back on the field and I've had coaches go back to parents or text me and be like I don't know what you did, but they're back and thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Well, not only just working through that and becoming a better player on the field and not letting that, but if somebody is really injured professional athletes and they're put on the injured reserve list for a month, two months, three months, I mean that that's a whole nother issue with the psyche, oh yes.
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness, yes, that self-doubt and who am I? Really? I went through this with, actually, my daughter last year, who's a volleyball player and had surgery. It's an identity crisis at that point for many of them which is, without this gift and when I'm not exercising it, who am I? And that there's a little talk, therapy involved in that work, but sometimes we just have to lift that injury and lift some of these moments of that. I have a guy I'm working with right now same thing. He's having issues in his marriage and what they tie back to are his years when he was 20 playing soccer and again that self-doubt when he didn't make first team but made second team. So these are people look at it and they're like, oh, it's just sports. No, it's you. You are a human. In every place you show up and it doesn't matter whether we value it or not, but it changes who you are and how you see things and you have to wrestle through some of that.
Speaker 1:Why is our job or our hobby? Why does that become our identity?
Speaker 2:I think often when we don't know how to root it in things that are greater in vigor, it's just easily accessible, right? We very easily get compliments for those things that others see and people don't go around and say, wow, you showed such integrity today when you didn't lie when your boss asked you a question. There's just not as much like hoorah over the other things that really do make up our identity so much so. So I just think that those are easier things, that we get quick validation, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, as somebody who can't take a compliment, I would much rather just, you know, not even be complimented at all. So for you to say, oh my gosh, the way that you handled that comment from the boss, you know, I don't know, I don't know where I was going with that.
Speaker 2:Oh, but that fascinates me. You got to be careful when you open up things like that with me, because I'm like, ooh, I wonder what that's about. Where should we have a conversation about that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, we can have a conversation at laurelweiriscom. I'll book a slot and we'll go from there. Congratulations on all your success.
Speaker 2:And I just, I wish you nothing but the best.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. Pretty cool, right? Yeah, I thought so too, and even though we kind of wrapped the conversation there, I kept recording, because I usually do, and we somehow got to talking about my endurance running and my failed attempt at solo running Alaska's Dalton Highway from the Arctic Circle to the Arctic Ocean. I tried it in November of 2019. I share this piece with you because it's very raw and you might like to hear like a voyeur, you know, but it also perfectly illustrates how compassionate and caring Laurel is, and those are traits that you want to find in a therapist.
Speaker 2:Would you ever try it again? How do you feel after that, after obviously you feel like you fell short in not completing it. Would you try it again?
Speaker 1:I don't know. You know people ask me that all the time. Would you try it again? I don't know. You know. People ask me that all the time. Would you try it again? There's a part of me that wants to go back and try and do it but there's a bigger part of me that doesn't want to train for 18 months.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that must be grueling. Yeah well, my wife gave up her spot in the garage, her parking spot in the garage, and we put a 20 by 20 walk-in freezer and I set it to minus 20 and we go run on a treadmill in there for two, three hours at a time to get my body acclimated to that temperature.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, that is impressive, and that is such dedication. I love it. Oh my Wow, so you are super special too, then. I mean, that is not something that your average person does.
Speaker 1:But think about it, okay, it's a form of self-torture, it's a form of self-harm because you're putting yourself in this very, very uncomfortable position and you're enjoying it, you know. So there's yeah. So I don't know, I don't know if you know much about I'm clinically depressed and chronic suicidal ideation.
Speaker 2:So I'm all kinds of effed up. Oh wow, I read a little bit about that, but I didn't know if that's still something that you oh, yeah, that's.
Speaker 1:It's the whole reason I do the fuzzy mic. Okay, because I know I'm not alone and you would not believe well, you would believe because you're in the industry. But the amount of people who respond to these episodes and say, my God, you helped me so much, and that's what this is about. You know, it serves two purposes for me. It's the conversation. I get to meet interesting people and I get to learn more about myself. But the bigger reason is because there's people out there that need this.
Speaker 2:Oh, totally. Yes, Of course you know there's so much I'd love to dive in with that, but I won't do that to you.
Speaker 1:But oh no, feel free, we're still recording.
Speaker 2:So when did your depression start?
Speaker 1:I realized it when I was about 15, 14 or 15, you know, after my dad said that to me, and he said it because I told him I didn't want to play baseball anymore and he's like well, welcome to a life with no future. So his identity was wrapped up in our baseball success and so that's where that came from, you know. And then when I was 22 and I did quit baseball because I wasn't going to be pro, and I got a job in radio for $13,100. He goes see, I told you nothing. Him $100. He goes see, I told you nothing. And so, but I knew, I knew when I was 15, 15, 14, 15, 16, that I didn't want to have kids and I, because I didn't want to pass this depressed gene on. You know, he's the fifth person in his family, his side of the family, to kill himself.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, that's so heavy, that's so heavy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow yeah.
Speaker 2:So oh yeah.
Speaker 1:So how does that impact you, knowing that there's been so many people that have done that?
Speaker 2:Well, I pretty much know that the next person is either going to be myself or my brother. Oh my goodness, that's just heavy too right Like just that thought.
Speaker 1:Oh, without my wife we wouldn't be having this conversation. Yeah, she's the greatest medicine. She's the greatest. I hate to say the word thing, but she is. She's the greatest aspect of my life.
Speaker 2:Yes, so it's so interesting that you talk about and that's what I always like to ask people is when did it start? Because, as you know, there's more and more people coming out and saying we are not created to be this way. Right, but it's the impact of life. And, yes, I do believe that there's genetic propensity, predisposition sorry, that feeds into that but I also believe that there's these switches right that get turned on when we have that predisposition.
Speaker 2:So when I hear you talk and now twice you've mentioned the same memories and I'm so glad you went to EMDR for it, but it sounds like it hasn't quite completely integrated it the way it needed to I hear that and you just fit with everything that I know to be true, which is when people come to me for certain things, even if it's trauma, and then I start to figure out they have anxiety and depression, and I always go back and say like, where did this start? They will. I get this more often than not and I'm like, well, hallelujah Cause, you know what, we can deal with that and that's gonna change everything for you going forward. So I love that you can pinpoint it and say, yeah, my whole sense of self completely changed on that day and that one thing has completely rewired and you've been fighting it since then and then it just kind of got doubled down on when you were 22.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh, we've got to heal that for you.
Speaker 1:Well, I'll reach out and we'll set up an appointment for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'm not trying. I am not trying to ruck up work, but I cannot even stand when I know that is a minimum. Let's just lift it and see what life is like, because you are, this is who my people are. They're these lovely people and it's these things that we think like no, but they're a little bit big and that so easily we can just neutralize that and see how your whole lens changes. Oh, I would love that for you.
Speaker 1:Well, you said you didn't want to ruck up business. Truth be told, I figured after we conversed I was going to be a client. I knew going into this. I did. I'm like, if we, if we don't resolve it in the conversation, I will be signing up. So yeah, it is something I would like to shed because you know it's it. I mean, still to this day, I still try and do stuff too, and he's dead. He's dead, he can't even you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, and there's stuff we can do around that too, or if we can throw that in and like there's things you can do that just even bring like relief from that. But it's not uncommon that many of my podcast hosts turn into my clients oh yeah, conversation that you realize. Oh, my gosh, there's actually hope and there's something out there that we haven't done. And that's my whole goal in the world right now is I just want people to know this is not hard and there are things that you could do to bring relief and like let's do it, you know, cause nobody knows. They just don't believe that it's. And of course everyone says well, laurel, it sounds too good to be true. And I say I know, but you know what?
Speaker 1:I'll just hold that faith for you till you get to the other side, and then I'll give it back to you. That's so cool. Yeah, it's, it's. It's amazing that we've come this far. Number one, that there are people now who are open about it, you know, open about their own battles, their own depression, their own psychosis. But then people like you who go oh, this is an easy fix. It's an easy fix. You know, it's like the work, the work that my wife and I do with pediatric cancer patients. You know, when I was born in 1969, any cancer had a 10% chance of survival. Now kids go into the hospital and they say you have ALL. It's a good cancer to have if you have to have one, because it's a 95% cure rate. Awesome, you know.
Speaker 2:Yes, totally Right, we have. We've come so far and again, we're not negating the import right of these things, but just saying that there are solutions that are, you know, easy, easier than once thought so.
Speaker 1:Well, the solutions can be found at laurelweerscom. That's where I'll be going right after we conclude this. And now again, thank you so much for being on with me, and you live in a beautiful state and you're just a delight. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Thank you. To be continued, and she's right.
Speaker 1:The conversation will continue because I have my initial consult with Laurel in two days. I can't promise because I haven't asked Laurel yet, but my session with Laurel may very well be the next episode. If you're curious how a session works and want to see if it's right for you or hell, maybe you just want to voyeur, be a fly on the wall into my mess of a mind, well then, the next episode of the Fuzzy Mike could just be for you. Now. If laughter is right for you, then check out the Tuttle Clime podcast every Wednesday on this very platform that you're listening to. The Fuzzy Mike right now. It's the show where my radio partner of 25 years, tim Tuttle, and I we just talk like two buddies at the end of the bar, solving world problems through laughter. Now here's my weekly request Please help me grow the Fuzzy Mike audience. You can do this simply by telling your friends, family, heck, even tell your enemies about the show. Please like, follow, comment, email me at thefuzzymikeatgmailcom and give the podcast a rating. I sure would appreciate it. My thanks to Laurel Wears for joining me. My thanks to you, as always, for listening.
Speaker 1:The Fuzzy Mike is hosted and produced by Kevin Kline. Podcast. Professional voice guy is Zach Sheesh from the Radio Farm. Social media director is Trish Kline. See you next week and thank you again for spending your time with me. I'm grateful. That's it for the Fuzzy Mike. Thank you, the Fuzzy Mike with Kevin Kline.